00:00:00 (interviewer) So what did we do, just a moment ago?
00:00:03 We are now in a duck trap facility at Oud-Alblas.
00:00:08 We have a longstanding practice of catching wild ducks here, for our research on flu viruses.
00:00:15 These wild ducks are actually the natural hosts of flu viruses.
00:00:21 The viruses are completely harmless to them...
00:00:24 because these viruses evolved for millions of years in sync with birds.
00:00:27 We can catch these birds quite easily here.
00:00:33 Once they are caught we take samples of their cloacas and throaths.
00:00:40 These viruses proliferate quickly in the respiratory system, both in humans and birds.
00:00:45 However, in birds they also proliferate in the stomach and intestines.
00:00:51 By taking samples we can identify these flu viruses in wild birds.
00:00:55 (interviewer) What is your affinity with viruses?
00:00:59 Viruses are fascinating organisms.
00:01:03 In particular because they are so small, you cannot see them.
00:01:08 Viruses are incredibly diverse. Every human, plant, animal, mold, bacterium, they all have their own viruses...
00:01:15 dozens of different viruses per species.
00:01:18 The diversity of viruses exceeds the diversity in nature we normally observe with our bare eyes.
00:01:25 Viruses evolve, just like humans and animals do.
00:01:32 However, viruses evolve quickly, so we can actually study evolution by studying viruses.
00:01:37 And this is what my research group is mainly doing.
00:01:40 They are interested in understanding how evolution works, in particular in viruses, in my case flu viruses.
00:01:48 (interviewer) When people think of viruses, they usually think: oops, dangerous, or even deadly.
00:01:57 Yes, well, most of the viruses we find in nature are completely harmless.
00:02:01 Me myself, and all other humans, we are constantly hosting viruses that do not harm us.
00:02:07 This is also the case for plants, molds, bacteria...
00:02:11 Most viruses are completely harmless.
00:02:14 The viruses in wild birds that we study are harmless to them...
00:02:19 That does not mean that viruses are totally innocuous.
00:02:23 We see, for example, that viruses in wild ducks can cross into poultry.
00:02:28 They may evolve in poultry to more dangerous variants, that eventually kills chickens and turkeys.
00:02:35 (interviewer) Are viruses a kind of conquerors of the world? Would that be a correct way to put it?
00:02:42 Viruses did not really conquer the world. Actually, we conquered the world after the viruses.
00:02:48 The theory is that viruses are the basis of life.
00:02:54 Bacteria, molds, and the higher organisms have evolved from viral elements.
00:03:01 Actually, viruses are the basis of contemporary life.
00:03:06 We conquered the world at the expense of the viruses.
00:03:11 (interviewer) But we are in a constant battle with them.
00:03:14 Yes, there are constant new threaths and new viruses that cross between hosts.
00:03:21 For example, from wild birds to poultry, or from poultry to humans.
00:03:25 When viruses change hosts, we can discern some regularity in the problems that occur.
00:03:32 We see that in flu viruses, but also in Zika and Ebola viruses.
00:03:40 We have seen large pandemonia of viruses that were harmless for their natural hosts.
00:03:45 But when they cross into a new host... new hosts are not really adapted to them, which causes trouble.
00:03:52 (interviewer) They can cause really big trouble, right?
00:03:56 Yes, most viruses are completely harmless, but we know that some families cause trouble.
00:04:06 Especially when they cross from animal to human. The recent Ebola outbreak is a good example...
00:04:14 Because the 'case fatality rate', the likeliness of death occuring in case of infection, was between 50%-90%.
00:04:24 But the good thing of the Ebola virus is that it does not proliferate well among humans.
00:04:29 And therefore there was no global outbreak, while other viruses can actually instantiate this.
00:04:35 Flu viruses are an example: if they cross to humans, and if they can proliferate among them, then we see a pandemonium.
00:04:47 That is a global epidemic, we have seen that in 2009 with the Mexican flu, and the swine flu that crossed to humans.
00:04:56 Within a few months it was spread throughout the entire world.
00:05:00 It is not as deadly as Ebola, but the epidemic killed at least 200.000 humans.
00:05:09 (interviewer) Your lab is mainly working with this kind of viruses, but what is it that renders your lab a state-of-the-art lab?
00:05:22 The big difference with other labs is that in our lab, viruses are studied from begin to end.
00:05:31 We start studying wild birds, the evolution and adaption of viruses to these birds, their crossing to poultry...
00:05:41 And how they cause problems there. We study the crossing from poulty to humans...
00:05:48 what kind of evolution processes are relevant there, and we study how viruses evolve in humans.
00:05:56 We see them returning every year in epidemics, they keep mutating, so that we constantly have to adapt our vaccines.
00:06:04 We study all facets of evolution: in nature with wild birds, in the lab, by imitating viruses with molecular techniques...
00:06:17 but also with genetic modification and in the lab with animal experiments. So actually the entire field from the natural origins...
00:06:29 to studying the molecular process in the smallest details, is what distinguishes our lab.
00:06:35 (interviewer) I also understood that you have a large archive?
00:06:40 Yes, we have build archives throughout the years. Rotterdam has employed virologists that work on viruses for more than 50 years.
00:06:53 The collection in our deep freezers dates back to the '30s, '40s, the time of prof. Mulder and prof. Masurel.
00:07:02 They are still being updated. So also for bird flu, swine flu, human flu... we have an enormous collection of viruses.
00:07:11 (interviewer) And if you have to explain in a few words what your research is about?
00:07:18 My research focuses on the evolution of flu viruses: when they adapt to new hosts, and when they try to escape our immune system.
00:07:34 That is the core of my research.
00:07:36 (interviewer) Some time ago you studied the proliferation of viruses, you even made a virus yourself...
00:07:42 (interviewer) Can you describe what happened in August 2011?
00:07:48 In the summer of 2011, we discovered that the H5N1 bird flu virus, which is highly pathogenic and deadly for chickens...
00:07:57 Could be transmitted between mammals via the respiratory system.
00:08:04 This kind of transmission through the air is what happens normally in pandemonia, so we tried to understand that...
00:08:15 By looking at this bird flu virus. But this is a relatively dangerous flu virus. We manipulated the virus...
00:08:24 In well-secured labs, of course, and it became not only pathogenic but also transmissible.
00:08:34 This was remarkable, because it was the first demonstration of how a bird flu virus...
00:08:39 Becomes transmissible between mammals. We were eager to publish our results. But during the peer-review process...
00:08:53 The viruses we manipulated were evaluated as being too susceptible to misuse by terrorists, for biological weapons.
00:09:01 The US government tried to withhold the publication of our data, method and results.
00:09:14 This should not be possible in science. We work in a transparent environment, so we share our results with our fellow scientists...
00:09:24 to help propagate science further, and to prevent the outbreak of pandemic viruses in the future.
00:09:32 The only way to do that is by sharing all information, by cooperation, and understanding how these viral transmissions work.
00:09:42 Subsequently there were global discussions that not only the Americans had to be aware of this issue...
00:09:50 But also the World Health Organisation. In 2012 they recommended to publish our study in all its glory...
00:10:05 So that the field of virology and flu research would be able to thrive.
00:10:10 (interviewer) But this was not quite a convenient period for you.
00:10:15 Indeed, it had quite some impact. If a government thinks that you are in possession of a biological weapon...
00:10:22 Then intelligence services will come by, security services, to ensure that the virus stays in the lab.
00:10:32 But it is not a weapon, it is an object of scientific inquiry. The virulency and transmissibility...
00:10:39 are being exaggerated by the lay media. But meausures were taken. You are being secured...
00:10:47 The deep freezer files were protected, computers were screened, too see whether terrorists looked over your shoulder
00:10:57 As a scientist, you seldom have experiences like this, and you do not want to have them again.
00:11:01 (interview) It influenced your private life directly as well.
00:11:04 It influences your private life, yes. For example, we had to travel all around the globe...
00:11:13 To meet the World Health Organisation, the US government. This means being away from home a lot.
00:11:21 And if you are at home, with wife and children, the police is patrolling your street to check up on you.
00:11:28 (interviewer) Is this still bothering you?
00:11:31 No, since the summer of 2012 it is quiet. There are still global discussions about the topic, and about changing laws...
00:11:49 but my private life is quiet again.
00:11:53 (interview) But I understood that in this period, you were also threatened.
00:11:58 Yes, on internet there were people threatening me and my family, saying things one wouldn't wish to one's enemy.
00:12:12 (interviewer) What is it that makes people react so ferociously?
00:12:16 Most people lack understanding of this subject. The American media said that we made a biological weapon...
00:12:29 and that if it would escape my lab, half of the world's population would cease to exist within months.
00:12:37 If you spread this kind of false information, then I can imagine that people become uneasy.
00:12:46 The fact that we were not allowed to share our data caused a disproportional exaggeration of our research...
00:12:55 in the American press, and that trickles down to The Netherlands. And some lay men think...
00:13:03 that they have enough knowledge of the facts, while these facts are not even on the table.
00:13:09 But they apparently know enough of these facts to call to harm me.
00:13:13 (interviewer) What are your reflections on that period?
00:13:16 It was an incredibly worrisome time in my academic career. One of my biggest scientific successes...
00:13:28 Evokes so much controversy, that one almost thinks that not having that success would have been better.
00:13:38 It was a worrisome period. Yet, we learned a lot from it, it stimulated our research, that would not have been possible otherwise.
00:13:56 (interviewer) A new lab has been built. It is extremely well-secured, isn't it?
00:14:02 Yes, because of public uneasiness about viruses, the attention by the lay press and politicians.
00:14:18 You see that in the last 10 years the rules concerning biosafety and biosecurity in labs are becoming more strict.
00:14:30 The terrorist attacks in the US contributed to this development. My research funds are mainly coming from the US.
00:14:37 Which means that I have to comply to the US rules, and these are becoming more strict.
00:14:42 The result is that I am working in a bunker, to keep dangerous people out. It is inconvenient, but apparently necessary.
00:14:58 (interviewer) But security measures are also necessary to keep the virus in the lab.
00:15:01 Yes, we work under biosafety and biosecurity conditions.
00:15:06 Biosafety means keeping dangerous viruses in the lab, biosecurity means keeping dangerous people out.
00:15:15 We do not want our lab workers to become infected. Fortunately this is kind of impossible in our lab...
00:15:23 because of all these layers of biosafety management, we can guarantee the security of our employees.
00:15:29 Experiments are conducted in hermetically sealed cabinets. Our people are protected from infections.
00:15:41 (interviewer) You have a top-notch laboratory, the lab is globally acknowledged, why is that?
00:15:51 I think that the multidisciplinary character of our research in Rotterdam...
00:15:58 (interviewer) Sorry, let me please ask the question again.
00:16:01 (interviewer) Your lab is globally acknowledged, what is the reason behind this?
00:16:06 I think that especially the multidisciplinarity of our research is quite unmatched.
00:16:14 We have experts in the ecology of wild animals, who observe animals in the wild...
00:16:25 but we also have pathologists, animal experimenters, molecular bioligists, geneticists...
00:16:32 All this expertise merges in our research group, which allows us to answer all questions in virology. This renders us unique.
00:16:45 (interviewer) Is your assistance demanded in case of trouble?
00:16:50 Yes, there are virus outbreaks somewhere on the globe every year, or every few years...
00:16:55 last year in the Netherlands in poultry, we had a H5N8 bird flu outbreak.
00:16:59 But we are also called-for in case of trouble in Bangladesh, Indonesia, Georgia...
00:17:09 to assist the locals in answering research questions, but we also provide advice...
00:17:17 in case of an outbreak. We are happy to do that, we do it a lot, almost every year.
00:17:26 (interviewer) So is your research carried out secretly, or is it public?
00:17:30 The research of my group is completely public, we work in academics, not in an army base.
00:17:37 We work with scientists and students from across the globe, this means that our research...
00:17:43 is carried out transparently. From the start, that is, from annoucing experiments, applying for funds...
00:17:51 to publication, and giving lectures. Every detail will be shared and communicated to the rest of the world.
00:18:01 (interviewer) If we look to the future, what will be the role of viruses? How can we control them?
00:18:11 Well, viruses prove to be quite comprehensible after a bit of research.
00:18:18 After 25 years of research on AIDS, we can treat AIDS with anti-viral medicines.
00:18:24 (interviewer) Let us wait for the plane to pass... So, if we look to the future...
00:18:32 (interviewer) what can we expect of viruses in the future? In what way can we use them?
00:18:39 A sufficient amount of research allows us to control viruses.
00:18:45 We eradicated some global viruses already: smallpox for example, does not exist anymore.
00:18:51 Other infectious diseases are treatable quite well, like AIDS, or hepatitis.
00:18:57 We anticipate flu viruses with vaccins, but they are not yet functioning optimal.
00:19:04 They provide at best 80% protection. But my research group and others around the globe are working very hard...
00:19:14 to design vaccins that provide 100% protection, and protect you from all other flu variants found in nature.
00:19:26 If we have those, then in principle there is no need to die because of the flu.
00:19:33 (interviewer) But can we predict the evolution of these viruses?
00:19:37 Flu viruses, just like many other viruses, evolve incredibly fast. You become resilient to them...
00:19:48 but after a few years, you will see that the virus can infect you again because it secretly changed a little bit.
00:19:56 This is why viruses return every winter; despite your earlier infections and resilience, they have changed slightly...
00:20:04 relative to your last infection. So once in, say, 10 years, you become infected.
00:20:12 We are currently researching whether we can make vaccins for the most conserved outer parts of viruses...
00:20:21 so that the virus cannot escape anymore. We try to target the crucial proteins, that are so crucial...
00:20:32 that when you change them, the virus will become crippled. We are currently working hard on that.
00:20:39 So hopefully, this will stop viruses from escaping our immune system.
00:20:46 (interviewer) What will all of this mean for us?
00:20:48 That the groups that face risks, and are vaccinated pre-emptively, people with asthma, diabetes, elderly people...
00:20:57 That they do not need to die because of the flu. We see that flu epidemics every year and world wide...
00:21:05 result in about 500 million casualties, that is quite a number. In principle this is preventable in the future.
00:21:17 People with this kind of vaccin against flu, but also other respiratory problems, will become much older.
00:21:27 And perhaps most important, they will also be healthier in their longer lives.
00:21:43 (interviewer) Can we redo the last part? What will all of this mean for us?
00:21:51 All those patients that are suffering diabetes...
00:22:17 These birds are quite noisy, they even produce more noise than I can!
00:22:21 (interviewer) We are not only conquering the world of the viruses but also with the viruses, right?
00:22:27 Yes, the growth of knowledge in virology enables us to use viruses to increase public heath.
00:22:36 The AIDS-virus, HIV, is well understood. We know exactly which parts of it we can remove, replace...
00:22:45 so that the virus becomes completely innocuous, and usable as vehicle.
00:22:51 The AIDS-virus is used to cure patients with immune deficiencies. These people have a defective gene...
00:23:02 And by using a HIV-virus that carries a correct copy of that gene, we can cure people with viruses..
00:23:12 viruses that would have killed us 25 years ago.
00:23:17 Similar attempts are made to use viruses against cancer, to repair other gen deficiencies...
00:23:26 or to use them as medicine-carriers, that can deliver medicines to exact locations in human bodies.
00:23:36 (interviewer) So you are kind of using the natural properties of viruses.
00:23:40 Yes, the diversity of viruses is enormous. They all have their own particular properties...
00:23:46 and we can pick the viruses with the properties that are most benificient for us.
00:23:52 Then we manipulate the viruses so that they become harmless to us...
00:23:58 but at the same time keep the properties that we need to transport genes or medicines to specific locations.
00:24:06 (interviewer) So you use viruses to transport genes to exact locations? How does that work?
00:24:15 A virus is basically a globule of fat, which contains genetic material. We can manipulate that.
00:24:25 We can remove non-essential parts, but we can also remove the infective parts...
00:24:33 the removed parts can be replaced with genes of interest. For example, a correct gene for a defective one.
00:24:45 (interviewer) And that means a cure?
00:24:48 Then we infect the patient with a virus, that we rendered harmless, actually a virus that cures you...
00:24:59 because it will multiply in your cells, and will inject a correct version of a gen where there used to be deficiences.
00:25:11 (interviewer) This is quite a special future for humans and viruses, isn't it?
00:25:16 The technology is actually still in its infancy, for we have been working for more than 25 years...
00:25:24 on gene therapy, viral vehicles, to cure people. The last few years there has been an enourmous development...
00:25:34 with viruses that are totally harmless to humans and animals, and that are easy to produce and inject.
00:25:44 Viruses that we can use to cure patients that are seriously ill. Hopefully in the future also for cancer.
00:25:50 Currently the first cancer medicines are available, but these do not work for some aggresive types...
00:25:59 prostate cancer, brain tumors. We are working hard on this: manipulating viruses to cure these diseases.
00:26:11 (interviewer) So if you look to your field of inquiry, what are your wildest dreams?
00:26:19 That ultimately, we will be able to become older in a healthy way. So that means...
00:26:28 without infections of the resipiratory system, without cancer.
00:26:34 We will achieve that, in the coming decennia.
00:26:40 Among other things, we will achieve this by using the viruses that used to infect us.
00:26:46 But by all these manipulations, they will rather cure us in the future. We can use them...
00:26:52 as vehicles for vaccins, as therapy for cancer, and other genetic deficiences.